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	<title>Comments on: Truth is out there &#8212; and we&#8217;ll bomb it</title>
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	<link>http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/</link>
	<description>"The thinking Laborite would as lief be found in bed with a cobra as in a committee room armed with 'arguments' from the Tory press." --- Truth, Perth, 19 June 1915.</description>
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		<title>By: Norman</title>
		<link>http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/comment-page-1/#comment-988</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/#comment-988</guid>
		<description>Interesting how some &quot;critics&quot; interpret American operations. If the US hit their own troops, it&#039;s interpreted as &quot;typical&quot; US incompetence; but if the US hit civilians or journalists, these same &quot;critics&quot; suddenly find clear evidence of US &quot;wickedness&quot;.
  It saves them the strain of careful analysis though, doesn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting how some &#8220;critics&#8221; interpret American operations. If the US hit their own troops, it&#8217;s interpreted as &#8220;typical&#8221; US incompetence; but if the US hit civilians or journalists, these same &#8220;critics&#8221; suddenly find clear evidence of US &#8220;wickedness&#8221;.<br />
  It saves them the strain of careful analysis though, doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Yobbo</title>
		<link>http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/comment-page-1/#comment-989</link>
		<dc:creator>Yobbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/#comment-989</guid>
		<description>Hey Rob I was wondering if you can help me.  My Uncle Jebediah Ward is the finance minister for the Hutt river province and they have been invaded by racist nationalists from northhampton.  I need $7,500 so he can pay administrative fees on his bank account to access funds thye can use to safely move innocent Hutt river diplomats to a safer location.  Upon their arrival you will be paid $15,000 Hutt River dollars for your assistance.  In other news the Hutt river has numerous beautiful bridges all of which for sale for very reasonable prices for more information please email me!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Rob I was wondering if you can help me.  My Uncle Jebediah Ward is the finance minister for the Hutt river province and they have been invaded by racist nationalists from northhampton.  I need $7,500 so he can pay administrative fees on his bank account to access funds thye can use to safely move innocent Hutt river diplomats to a safer location.  Upon their arrival you will be paid $15,000 Hutt River dollars for your assistance.  In other news the Hutt river has numerous beautiful bridges all of which for sale for very reasonable prices for more information please email me!</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/comment-page-1/#comment-990</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/#comment-990</guid>
		<description>Norman, when the US repeatedly bombs populated areas with merely secondary or tertiary military significance (an electric substation, perhaps), it&#039;s incompetence. When the US strikes British convoys or gets in firefights with its own battalions, it&#039;s incompetence. When the US can&#039;t give an answer as to why it decided to bombard areas with absolutely NO military significance, when it is well known for quite some time their use for civilian roles, it&#039;s still incompetence. You can&#039;t save a city of five million by flattening it. It&#039;s the exact same cowboyism that the Brits were complaining about when that A-10 starts firing on that tank convoy: &quot;I&#039;ve got the guns, whaddaya gonna do?&quot; Whether it&#039;s the subtext of the tank commander or his general, it&#039;s still incompetence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Norman, when the US repeatedly bombs populated areas with merely secondary or tertiary military significance (an electric substation, perhaps), it&#8217;s incompetence. When the US strikes British convoys or gets in firefights with its own battalions, it&#8217;s incompetence. When the US can&#8217;t give an answer as to why it decided to bombard areas with absolutely NO military significance, when it is well known for quite some time their use for civilian roles, it&#8217;s still incompetence. You can&#8217;t save a city of five million by flattening it. It&#8217;s the exact same cowboyism that the Brits were complaining about when that A-10 starts firing on that tank convoy: &#8220;I&#8217;ve got the guns, whaddaya gonna do?&#8221; Whether it&#8217;s the subtext of the tank commander or his general, it&#8217;s still incompetence.</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth</title>
		<link>http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/comment-page-1/#comment-991</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/#comment-991</guid>
		<description>Come off it Jono: Baghdad has hardly been &quot;flattened&quot;.  Look at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.spaceimaging.com/gallery/default.htm&quot;&gt;this for a start to see for yourself the extent of the damage.  Then consider the fact that the proportion of innocents killed in the city currently stands (if you accept the most inflated figure at what in my opinion is an agenda driven &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.iraqbodycount.org&quot;&gt;IraqBodyCount.org&lt;/a&gt;) at 0.2278 percent of the population.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Come off it Jono: Baghdad has hardly been &#8220;flattened&#8221;.  Look at <a href="http://www.spaceimaging.com/gallery/default.htm">this for a start to see for yourself the extent of the damage.  Then consider the fact that the proportion of innocents killed in the city currently stands (if you accept the most inflated figure at what in my opinion is an agenda driven </a><a href="http://www.iraqbodycount.org">IraqBodyCount.org</a>) at 0.2278 percent of the population.</p>
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		<title>By: andrea</title>
		<link>http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/comment-page-1/#comment-992</link>
		<dc:creator>andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/#comment-992</guid>
		<description>Sigh. Fog of war, right?

Gareth, 0.2278 percent is still a number of civilians killed. Maybe you&#039;re &#039;willing to accept&#039; a certain number of civilian casualties, but it pains me and a lot of other people to see it happen at all. That war had to be waged at all.

We can talk all we like about whether or not Baghdad is being razed to the ground, whether the damage is nothing at all, but the truth is, we won&#039;t know unless we are on the streets of the city.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sigh. Fog of war, right?</p>
<p>Gareth, 0.2278 percent is still a number of civilians killed. Maybe you&#8217;re &#8216;willing to accept&#8217; a certain number of civilian casualties, but it pains me and a lot of other people to see it happen at all. That war had to be waged at all.</p>
<p>We can talk all we like about whether or not Baghdad is being razed to the ground, whether the damage is nothing at all, but the truth is, we won&#8217;t know unless we are on the streets of the city.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/comment-page-1/#comment-993</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/#comment-993</guid>
		<description>Saw quite a few interviews with CNN journos last night--not exactly raving lefties--and all were very angry.  None of them accused the military of a deliberately doing it, but all said there needs to be a very high level and serious inquiry.  And they kept saying it.  Their anger spoke volumes.  So I dunno.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saw quite a few interviews with CNN journos last night&#8211;not exactly raving lefties&#8211;and all were very angry.  None of them accused the military of a deliberately doing it, but all said there needs to be a very high level and serious inquiry.  And they kept saying it.  Their anger spoke volumes.  So I dunno.</p>
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		<title>By: Norman</title>
		<link>http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/comment-page-1/#comment-994</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/#comment-994</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ve hit the key point, Tim. Anyone in their position would be angry. There&#039;ll be investigations into this and a whole range of other deaths later; but even if the journalists are satisfied, the &quot;Agent Mulders&quot; of Blogging  will still be shouting &quot;Conspiracy!!!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve hit the key point, Tim. Anyone in their position would be angry. There&#8217;ll be investigations into this and a whole range of other deaths later; but even if the journalists are satisfied, the &#8220;Agent Mulders&#8221; of Blogging  will still be shouting &#8220;Conspiracy!!!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ezrael</title>
		<link>http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/comment-page-1/#comment-995</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezrael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/#comment-995</guid>
		<description>Uhm, Norman, where is the talk of conspiracy? Saying that the US Military is at best willing to be lax and at worse deliberately targeting non-embedded journalists does not equate to ranting conspiracy mongering. It&#039;s too early to call either way.

If the US hits its own troops...is that &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; incompetence? What is it? Deliberate? Competent? &lt;i&gt;&quot;We very competently mowed down our own troops.&quot;&lt;/i&gt; My understanding of comptence vs. incompetence would require me to say that the accidental shelling or shooting of allied troops would fall under the category of an incompetent act. Granted, human error is always going to occur, but that doesn&#039;t excuse such oversights, or release them from the label of incompetence.

Similarly, if our military is bombing buildings without cause, or because they contain journalists...well, what &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; we call it? Do we just excuse everything under the old rubric that &#039;it&#039;s war, what are we expected to do&#039; or do we demand that such not be countenanced? I don&#039;t think it makes me one of the Lone Gunmen to expect that we not waste time and resources attacking the press or our allies. We have few of the latter left at this point, and our chances of attracting future ones get worse and worse if we appear (rightly or wrongly) to be willing to kill reporters to keep them from reporting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uhm, Norman, where is the talk of conspiracy? Saying that the US Military is at best willing to be lax and at worse deliberately targeting non-embedded journalists does not equate to ranting conspiracy mongering. It&#8217;s too early to call either way.</p>
<p>If the US hits its own troops&#8230;is that <i>not</i> incompetence? What is it? Deliberate? Competent? <i>&#8220;We very competently mowed down our own troops.&#8221;</i> My understanding of comptence vs. incompetence would require me to say that the accidental shelling or shooting of allied troops would fall under the category of an incompetent act. Granted, human error is always going to occur, but that doesn&#8217;t excuse such oversights, or release them from the label of incompetence.</p>
<p>Similarly, if our military is bombing buildings without cause, or because they contain journalists&#8230;well, what <i>do</i> we call it? Do we just excuse everything under the old rubric that &#8216;it&#8217;s war, what are we expected to do&#8217; or do we demand that such not be countenanced? I don&#8217;t think it makes me one of the Lone Gunmen to expect that we not waste time and resources attacking the press or our allies. We have few of the latter left at this point, and our chances of attracting future ones get worse and worse if we appear (rightly or wrongly) to be willing to kill reporters to keep them from reporting.</p>
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		<title>By: Norman</title>
		<link>http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/comment-page-1/#comment-996</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/#comment-996</guid>
		<description>Well, at least the TV &quot;Mulders&quot; can understand what they read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, at least the TV &#8220;Mulders&#8221; can understand what they read.</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth</title>
		<link>http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/comment-page-1/#comment-997</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redrag.net/2003/04/09/truth-is-out-there-and-well-bomb-it/#comment-997</guid>
		<description>A new perspective on the Palestine Hotel:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The BBC&#039;s defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan has cast doubt on whether the missile that killed two journalists in Baghdad today was fired by a US tank, speculating that Iraqi soldiers may have launched the lethal attack.

&quot;I may be right in saying we&#039;re hearing from central command that they&#039;re starting to retract their apology for this incident,&quot; Gilligan told Radio 5 Live&#039;s drivetime show.

He added that after examining the scene he concluded it was virtually impossible for the US tank to have fired on the 15th floor room.

&quot;I have to say I rather doubt it and, having been underneath it and looking up now just before it got dark at the hole again in the side of the hotel, I still doubt it. 

&quot;For a start the damage to the hotel is superficial, it&#039;s only the masonry that&#039;s been torn off in a very small area, a tank shell would have done more damage I feel. 

&quot;Secondly the angle that the tank would have to have reached to hit that roof, it would more or less have had to have shot just round the corner and I don&#039;t think even the Americans have got those kinds of weapons.&quot;

Gilligan said although American tank fire hit other parts of the hotel, it was possible an Iraqi attack was responsible for the journalists&#039; deaths.

&quot;Now the Americans have admitted they fired at the hotel. There was damage to other parts of the hotel. 

&quot;This was the main one the 15th floor room, where the two people were killed and three injured, but there was also damage to rooms on the 14th and 17th floors. 

&quot;Now that might have been the responsibility of the Americans. 

&quot;This might have been the responsibility of someone else, maybe some Saddam Fedayeen with a rocket-propelled grenade, who did not like the fact the Reuters guy was shooting footage from his balcony at the time of the attack. 

&quot;That is pure speculation. I just think there must still be some doubt over this area.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not conclusive, but nothing else is either at this point.  Worth considering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A new perspective on the Palestine Hotel:</p>
<blockquote><p>The BBC&#8217;s defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan has cast doubt on whether the missile that killed two journalists in Baghdad today was fired by a US tank, speculating that Iraqi soldiers may have launched the lethal attack.</p>
<p>&#8220;I may be right in saying we&#8217;re hearing from central command that they&#8217;re starting to retract their apology for this incident,&#8221; Gilligan told Radio 5 Live&#8217;s drivetime show.</p>
<p>He added that after examining the scene he concluded it was virtually impossible for the US tank to have fired on the 15th floor room.</p>
<p>&#8220;I have to say I rather doubt it and, having been underneath it and looking up now just before it got dark at the hole again in the side of the hotel, I still doubt it. </p>
<p>&#8220;For a start the damage to the hotel is superficial, it&#8217;s only the masonry that&#8217;s been torn off in a very small area, a tank shell would have done more damage I feel. </p>
<p>&#8220;Secondly the angle that the tank would have to have reached to hit that roof, it would more or less have had to have shot just round the corner and I don&#8217;t think even the Americans have got those kinds of weapons.&#8221;</p>
<p>Gilligan said although American tank fire hit other parts of the hotel, it was possible an Iraqi attack was responsible for the journalists&#8217; deaths.</p>
<p>&#8220;Now the Americans have admitted they fired at the hotel. There was damage to other parts of the hotel. </p>
<p>&#8220;This was the main one the 15th floor room, where the two people were killed and three injured, but there was also damage to rooms on the 14th and 17th floors. </p>
<p>&#8220;Now that might have been the responsibility of the Americans. </p>
<p>&#8220;This might have been the responsibility of someone else, maybe some Saddam Fedayeen with a rocket-propelled grenade, who did not like the fact the Reuters guy was shooting footage from his balcony at the time of the attack. </p>
<p>&#8220;That is pure speculation. I just think there must still be some doubt over this area.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Not conclusive, but nothing else is either at this point.  Worth considering.</p>
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