Comments on: Flip-flop from the Fabricator http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/ "The thinking Laborite would as lief be found in bed with a cobra as in a committee room armed with 'arguments' from the Tory press." --- Truth, Perth, 19 June 1915. Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:29:18 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: slatts http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/comment-page-1/#comment-2849 slatts Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/#comment-2849 Rather than continue the divisive abuse, wouldn't it be more helpful to address the point Windschuttle is making: that remote communities are failing at all levels and closure may be the only viable solution. Experienced, rational people of good will need to become involved in this debate. Abuse won't attract them. The time is well and truly over when apologists for leftwing, patronising policies controlled the game by branding any critics racist. Rather than continue the divisive abuse, wouldn’t it be more helpful to address the point Windschuttle is making: that remote communities are failing at all levels and closure may be the only viable solution. Experienced, rational people of good will need to become involved in this debate. Abuse won’t attract them. The time is well and truly over when apologists for leftwing, patronising policies controlled the game by branding any critics racist.

]]> By: Robert http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/comment-page-1/#comment-2850 Robert Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/#comment-2850 I didn't call him racist in this post. I called him a hypocrite, which he plainly is. That doesn't mean I'm dismissing his idea (I haven't got time to analyse it at the moment), I'm just pointing out that one of his main arguments is that the "orthodox historians" were writing polemics to justify their contemporary political beliefs. Many of his opponents suggested Windschuttle was politically motivated. He denied it, but now they're proved right. I didn’t call him racist in this post. I called him a hypocrite, which he plainly is. That doesn’t mean I’m dismissing his idea (I haven’t got time to analyse it at the moment), I’m just pointing out that one of his main arguments is that the “orthodox historians” were writing polemics to justify their contemporary political beliefs. Many of his opponents suggested Windschuttle was politically motivated. He denied it, but now they’re proved right.

]]> By: S Whiplash http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/comment-page-1/#comment-2851 S Whiplash Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/#comment-2851 Robert, The first Windshuttle quote is from a discussion of the so called "history wars". Mr Windshuttle is referring to the distortion of history perpetrated by leftist historians aiming to "prove" that the arrival of Europeans was "like an invasion of the Nazis". The passage in full is as follows: Can I just say, Tony, Stuart criticises me in his book as lacking compassion. The responsibility of the historian is not to be compassionate, it is to be dispassionate. It's to stand above current political squabbles and aims and objectives and to try and get at the truth. What the historians of Aboriginal Australia have done is they've taken sides in disputes. They've supported one faction over another. They've taken a political charge that Australia has this deep shame at the root of its history and have tried to make it into a big political case. As far as I know, his claims of leftist historical fabrication have not been refuted. Mr Windschuttle's comments at the convention of the West Australian Pastoralists and Graziers Association are his opinions --- no doubt grounded in exhaustive research --- on some of Australia's Aboriginal policies. Surely Mr Windschuttle is entitled to voice his well-informed opinions. At least he didn't try to pass off assumptions based on fabricated evidence as scholarly history. Robert,

The first Windshuttle quote is from a discussion of the so called “history wars”. Mr Windshuttle is referring to the distortion of history perpetrated by leftist historians aiming to “prove” that the arrival of Europeans was “like an invasion of the Nazis”. The passage in full is as follows:

Can I just say, Tony, Stuart criticises me in his book as lacking compassion.

The responsibility of the historian is not to be compassionate, it is to be dispassionate.

It’s to stand above current political squabbles and aims and objectives and to try and get at the truth.

What the historians of Aboriginal Australia have done is they’ve taken sides in disputes.

They’ve supported one faction over another.

They’ve taken a political charge that Australia has this deep shame at the root of its history and have tried to make it into a big political case.

As far as I know, his claims of leftist historical fabrication have not been refuted.

Mr Windschuttle’s comments at the convention of the West Australian Pastoralists and Graziers Association are his opinions — no doubt grounded in exhaustive research — on some of Australia’s Aboriginal policies. Surely Mr Windschuttle is entitled to voice his well-informed opinions. At least he didn’t try to pass off assumptions based on fabricated evidence as scholarly history.

]]> By: Robert http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/comment-page-1/#comment-2852 Robert Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/#comment-2852 Windschuttle accused Reynolds et al of "sexing up" the historical record of Aboriginal dispossession in order to push for land rights. He said this was wrong. His book was aimed at doing exactly the same thing -- if Aborigines had no system of land tenure, and if they were responsible for their own suffering (because they were murderous criminals and whores) then there is no case for native title. Even the anti-native title Ron Brunton has said Windschuttle's claims that the Aborigines had no concept of land ownership was wrong. In other words, he massaged the historical record to support his contemporary political goals. He's guilty of the crimes he accused others of committing. He is a hypocrite. Windschuttle accused Reynolds et al of “sexing up” the historical record of Aboriginal dispossession in order to push for land rights. He said this was wrong.

His book was aimed at doing exactly the same thing — if Aborigines had no system of land tenure, and if they were responsible for their own suffering (because they were murderous criminals and whores) then there is no case for native title. Even the anti-native title Ron Brunton has said Windschuttle’s claims that the Aborigines had no concept of land ownership was wrong. In other words, he massaged the historical record to support his contemporary political goals.

He’s guilty of the crimes he accused others of committing. He is a hypocrite.

]]> By: S Whiplash http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/comment-page-1/#comment-2853 S Whiplash Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/#comment-2853 He didn't massage the historical record, he drew different conclusions from the evidence. In any event, there has been no refutation of his claims of leftist fabrication. What has he fabricated? He didn’t massage the historical record, he drew different conclusions from the evidence. In any event, there has been no refutation of his claims of leftist fabrication. What has he fabricated?

]]> By: Robert http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/comment-page-1/#comment-2854 Robert Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/#comment-2854 <em>He didn't massage the historical record, he drew different conclusions from [selective reference to] the evidence.</em> Tomayto, tomahto. <em>What has he fabricated?</em> A history of the Tasmanian Aborigines. My opinions on this topic are well known. I don't propose to repeat myself everytime someone joins the blogosphere. Read the archives of Mentalspace, Troppo Armadillo, Road to Surfdom and Back Pages Blog for the full debate. He didn’t massage the historical record, he drew different conclusions from [selective reference to] the evidence.

Tomayto, tomahto.

What has he fabricated?

A history of the Tasmanian Aborigines.

My opinions on this topic are well known. I don’t propose to repeat myself everytime someone joins the blogosphere. Read the archives of Mentalspace, Troppo Armadillo, Road to Surfdom and Back Pages Blog for the full debate.

]]> By: S Whiplash http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/comment-page-1/#comment-2855 S Whiplash Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/#comment-2855 Okay, so you've refuted Windschuttle. Please point me to the academics who have refuted him. Okay, so you’ve refuted Windschuttle. Please point me to the academics who have refuted him.

]]> By: Robert http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/comment-page-1/#comment-2856 Robert Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/#comment-2856 This is an old debate, Whiplash. I suggest you trawl through the archives. I've already mentioned that Ron Brunton refuted him. So have many other academics; it shouldn't take you long to track them down. This is an old debate, Whiplash. I suggest you trawl through the archives. I’ve already mentioned that Ron Brunton refuted him. So have many other academics; it shouldn’t take you long to track them down.

]]> By: Dan http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/comment-page-1/#comment-2857 Dan Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/#comment-2857 "Whitewash" and "The History Wars" should be a good starting point. “Whitewash” and “The History Wars” should be a good starting point.

]]> By: Gary http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/comment-page-1/#comment-2858 Gary Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 http://www.redrag.net/2004/02/27/flip-flop-from-the-fabricator/#comment-2858 "I suggest you trawl through the archives." At least it will be easier then finding the "Stolen Generation". “I suggest you trawl through the archives.”

At least it will be easier then finding the “Stolen Generation”.

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